Am I saved, or am I being saved? Talking Theology via email…(with several guest authors)

I’m kind of hopeful that this kind of post will take off and be a staple of the blog. I composed an email this week (copied below), and sent it out to a few people that I thought might be interested in a nice, deep Biblical discussion. The response back has been great, and I’ve copied most of it below. First up, my original question: 

Hello all, Consider this: 

1 Peter 1 3-9

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I find that verse 9 to be quite striking. In fact, I have always found the NT teaching of salvation to be very interesting when compared/contrasted to what the modern church teaches about salvation. For us, we always emphasize the instant aspects of salvation - the one time thing that happens suddenly. I certainly believe that is an aspect of salvation, but verse 9 above seems to also see salvation as a continual thing that is ongoing. 

In the ESV, it says: 

Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, 9obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

This thinking goes along with these verses also: 
 

Philippians 2:12 

 12Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

 

Phil 3:12-13

 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
 

Romans 5:10 

10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

(Note the future tense, “shall be saved”) 

 

1 Timothy 4:16

16Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

(Again, note the future tense: “you will save”) 

 

I wonder about the practical aspects of this teaching in scripture. Perhaps we have all heard the thought that the Bible teaches we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. I think the Bible certainly uses verbiage consistent with that idea, but we rarely teach it, and only emphasis the instantaneous transformation. What we we missing when we do so? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? Again, I am interested more in the practical aspects of this understanding, rather than the theological ones. How should this impact our evangelism and counseling? How does it impact our discipleship? I might turn some of our discussion (if we have any) into a blog post. 

I close with a solemn warning and a promise: 

Philippians 1:6 (the promise) 

6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

 

Romans 11:22 (New International Version) (the warning) 

 22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

thanks for reading…..Chase

That was the original email. For ease of reading below, I have put each persons response in bold typeface, and left my own comments and linking sentences in regular print. Verses are in italics. Here are some responses:  (CLICK THE READ MORE LINK TO READ THE ENTIRE POST):

First up, John Talley weighs in using marriage as an excellent illustration: 

I think it is possible that with the focus primarily being instantaneous salvation we ignore the servicing so to speak of the relationship with GOD. Would be like ignoring your wife after the wedding. we may not focus on the relationship being a love affair with GOD. it’s almost the mentality, which I was guilty of when I was younger, that since I’m saved I can raise as much hell as I want because its payed for.

As far as discipleship goes, I think focusing on instantaneous salvation can also stifle growth because there is then no accountability. The mindset is then if someone tries to hold me accountable then they are obviously being overly critical. Being genuinely concerned for someone’s walk isn’t seen as done in love, but in criticalness.

As far as evangelism is concerned, It feeds to the lack of comittment on “the modern church”. We have the mindset (again, I’ve been guilty of this thought too) that if we can just get someone to repent, just walk an aisle and say the sinners prayer, then we’ve done our job. That thought totally skips the part of the great commission that says “making disciples”.
 

Good points, John! Next up, here’s Sam Knowles (responding to John): 
 

John,

I must say the analogy of the wedding is perfect in regards to this discussion.  The only thing I want to quickly interject right now and then maybe more later as I ponder is this: Are all of the “save” , “saved”, “salvation” references in the verses listed speaking of the eternal state of our souls?  Just fodder for the thought process, haven’t studied it out yet.
 

Sam raises a good question - it is debatable whether some of the references quoted above all speak to salvation as we understand it (i.e. “getting saved”). They appear to be focused on that issue, but it is definately a matter of discussion. 

Next up, a good friend of mine named Jarrod Patterson (http://www.susiebethandjarrod.com) weighs in with a meaty response, introducing us to the concept of “vague salvation”: 

 

I think that there are a lot of things that are missed in many of the sermons on salvation that i have heard over the years. salvation tends to be looked at and taught in a very vague general sense. as John Talley was saying, for many church-goers in America, salvation is simply walking down the aisle and repeating some sort of ritualistic incantation…and boom - you’re saved! but what are we saved from? who saved us? how did he do it? why did we even need saving in the first place? i think that leaving these questions unanswered leads to a lot of bad practices in the church - poor discipleship, lukewarmness, “backsliding”, poor (perhaps in some cases, false) evangelism, legalism & “religiosity”…the list goes on. salvation is not a “fire insurance policy” (if i may use the old cliche) that we just decided we needed at 6yrs old…and Jesus Christ is not an insurance salesman.

What are we missing with this vague salvation?

-we miss our need for a savior. we were born enemies of God. His righteous hatred of sin and our fallen nature resulted in God’s wrath being on us.

-we miss justification. Christ did so much more than suffer the horrible natural death of crucifixion. He was a propitiation, a substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf. the cup of God’s wrath against sinners was poured out on Christ.

-we’re missing this idea of regeneration or the “new birth” (1 Pet. 1:3).we’re missing the fact that God has “taken out our heart of stone and given us a heart of flesh” (ezekiel 11:19-20)

-we miss “sanctification”. as chase referenced earlier, scripture says that God is faithful to complete the work of salvation in our lives and that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

-we miss that the goal is not escape from hell or entrance into heaven. but eternal life is to know the Father.

Chase-i think it’s great that you point out the need for practicality in theological study. that’s something that is easily lost. 

I think understanding theology and having sound doctrine is a crucial foundation to practical and effective ministry.

In our counseling and discipleship, we need to encourage people in their sanctification. we need to encourage them to really work out their salvation with fear and trembling. we should not treat the Gospel as a license to sin so that grace may abound (Rom. 6). rather, a regenerated heart responds to the Gospel in faith and repentance and longing to please the Father and be more like Christ. like Paul we should counsel and encourage our brothers and sisters in Christ to test themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 cor. 13:5). also, in our personal relationships with Christ, we should be doing this and rejoicing together knowing that if we are indeed found in Christ Jesus, then there is forgiveness when we repent and there is no longer condemnation because we stand in His righteousness - not our own works. our salvation is secure because through Christ we have been justified and are now and continually being sanctified.

And how can we evangelize the lost if we don’t first understand salvation ourselves? we can’t! so naturally we turn to other gimmicks to get people to choose Christianity. we hand out tracts, build buildings, put on childrens event’s. perhaps we offer a “spiritual” experience, going so far as to avoid mentioning Jesus altogether. 

I’m not intending to knock any particular method of evangelism (well, maybe just one…lol). and i certainly am not trying to say that meeting the legitimate and physical needs of people isn’t necessary, because it is. however, the Gospel has to be at the heart of it all. and Jesus is the heart of the Gospel. we should realize that we are utterly helpless to save ourselves - that salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. and in turn, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. and how can they respond to the Gospel in faith, unless they hear it preached (Romans 10:14-17)? people need to hear that they are under the wrath of God apart from Christ. they need to hear that in His grace and mercy, the Father poured out on Christ the wrath that was due them, you, and i. they need to hear that through Christ alone and not our own “good” works, God offers us a new heart that loves Him and assurance that He will continue the work of this salvation so that ultimately we can know the Father in heaven! 

Man, i’m not even sure that i answered your initial question chase…haha

I think Jarrod is definitely barking up the right tree here. The recidivism (backsliding, or number of people who fall away after a conversion) numbers in the church are amazing. Many, many “decisions” are made for Jesus, for that is what the church emphasizes - a one time “decision” to follow Jesus. It seems like Jesus, in His teachings, de-emphasized the one time aspect of it, and emphasized the life-long nature of the commitment. Consider the man who told Jesus, I will follow you, but first let me go and bury my father. How could Jesus have discouraged him from doing such a thing (saying, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”) if He was focused on a one time decision? John Talley chimes in again: 
 

After reading the other responses another thing came to mind. The focus on instantaneous salvation also opens an evangelist to a false sense of accomplishment. How many people have made a decision for Christ in a Billy Graham type event… thousands ? hundreds of thousands ? Now how many have made decisions during revivals or VBS ? If these were all truly born again people then why would the divorce rate be the same in the church as it is outside the church.
 

John is hitting on the same issue I was commenting on above - we have a great deal more “decisions” for Christ than we have disciples of Christ. It may well be that the “decisions” outnumber the disciples by a 10 to 1 margin - if not more! After John, Greg Cusimano weighs in: 

If I may pine in on this discussion.  I really have been curious and puzzled over the past several years by SEEKER sensitive mega churches who have made it difficult for the small church in America to exist.  I wonder if the intimacy of family and relationship of the small church has been replaced with a christian form of entertainment that has left many with an unsure path to maturity in Christ or even salvation.  (I do believe some churches do seeker sensitive well, but the copycats or mirror churches may not).  I’m not at all a fan of replacing the preaching of the Word and corporate prayer and worship for something else, to attract a crowd.

In His Love….Greg

 

Greg brings an interesting point to the discussion - discipleship can often suffer in large groups - people can fall through the cracks, and it is difficult to take a relationship beyond a surface level. Mega churches are notorious for having many members who get lost in the shuffle, or “hide in the crowds”, but smaller churches like Agape (200 or so members, attendance a little over 100) are not at all immune to that affect. Even in a group our size, it is easy to remain in superficial relationships with each other, ignore discipleship, and fade in and out of fellowship/relationship. That is why many in leadership at Agape have been talking with renewed vigor about small groups, and the exciting potential for true discipleship the exists in them! Next up is Michael Fargarson, responding from his Blackberry: 

 

My first thought like Sam is that there are varying meanings of the word save and its derivatives. I don’t think every one of these passages refers save in the salvation of the soul sense. Since I’m BBing [black-berrying] it, I won’t attempt to define the word in each verse.

 That said, there are important ramifications for our understanding of the gospel. I believe we must be careful to neither add or take away from the gospel.  We must neither add to the requirements nor take away. Either is an egregious error. On the one hand we have easy believism and on the other discipleship salvation. It’s similar to Calvinism vs. Arminianism. The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Our priority remains to preach Christ crucified.  There will always be various responses like the sower parable.  It’s not up to us to determine response.  There will be wheat and tares. That’s all for now.

Seeking the Truth….Michael

 

I’ll be curious to find out which of the verses mentioned above that Michael doesn’t see relate to salvation in the sense of being saved by Jesus. He might well be right!  Michael goes on to mention a concept that he calls discipleship salvation, which has been preached in many churches around the world. At its core, discipleship salvation is essentially a mixture of grace based salvation, and works based salvation - in essence, true salvation doesn’t occur when somebody enters into a relationship with Jesus - it occurs further down the road as one conforms more to the teachings of scripture. As Michael says, this can be seen as adding to the gospel of grace - a very dangerous thing.  John Talley responds to Michael from his Samsung pseudo Blackberry (I too have a fake Blackberry from Samsung):

 

Agreed. what we are looking for is balance. Jesus came in the fullness of grace and truth.  In balance, i e “neither do I condemn you” GRACE  ”go and sin no more TRUTH.” Salvation is neither a one time get outta Hell free card nor a work diligently and if you get it all right then you made it deal. Its trying to live a holy life motivated by love of the Lord not a demand for perfection. when we screw up, grace picks us up, dusts us off , and says get going again. The word is clear that salvation cannot be had without grace and that it is not by works lest one boast, but it also says faith without works is dead. Bingo - back to balance. Its almost like God says you ain’t gotta be perfect , but you should at least try. I’ll take care of when you fall - just keep going.

 

Another John, John Wesley, would have a good discussion with John about the possibility of a Christian living a perfect life. Since this post is going to run close to 4000 words, I’ll leave that discussion for another time! Finally, James David McConnell writes in with the first chapter of a book he’s apparently working on relative to this issue:   ;)

 

Obviously 1 Peter is written to Christians facing suffering, that is a given – perhaps readers beginning to feel the effects of persecution in the Nero era. Thus Peter writes to encourage Christians that this suffering is tough – perhaps terrible – but it is serving a purpose. That purpose is to show their faith to be genuine. We could be reminded here of the words of Christ back in Matthew 13 that talks about the four soils, and in his explanation said that some would receive the gospel with joy, yet would only last a short time. When trouble or persecution came, they would fall away. But Peter describes those who prove to be true believers, the proof is that in the midst of suffering they stand firm. Their faith proves to be genuine. They are not saved because they faithfully make it through the trial, instead I would say that they faithfully make it through the trial because they are saved. [Editor's note: Great point here, David!]

I would make three points about the passage (because all good Baptist pastors have to make three points whenever they talk). First, these readers were born again; Peter was not teaching that they were being born again, like an incomplete process. He stated in verse 3 that ‘he has given us new birth, and that through faith they ‘are shielded by God’s power’. Those are statements about a process that is complete. (If we don’t like the NIV here, the ESV or KJV seems to give the same tense). When I did the series on the Gospel I made the statement that I dislike the phrase ‘once saved always saved’ because of the bad theology that it seems to conjure up. But I would say ‘If saved, always saved’ because I believe in the perseverance of the Saints and I think Peter shows the people to be saved now and forever. [Editor's note: Spoken like a true Calvinist - another good point.]

Second, I think Peter is teaching that the process of walking out our salvation and receiving the fruit or the reward of that salvation is an ongoing event. Even in the midst of suffering, these people were experiencing ‘glorious joy’ which is a fruit of their salvation. They were no doubt growing in their walk with the Lord during this time, as happens with all of us during trials when we press into God. But, this was not their only reward for one day they would receive the full possession of the blessings of their salvation. So the phrase ‘you are receiving’ shows that the process of living out your salvation is on going. Which brings me to point number…

Three. We can infer that not every person who thought they were saved had their faith proved genuine during this time of suffering. No doubt there were those who ‘fell away’ during this time, because as Jesus said they had no root (they were really not born again). Which leads us to this horrifying reality, that not everyone we know who thinks they are saved, are really saved. As John and Jarrod talked about, I think we (the modern church) have contributed to this with our evangelism tactics and sermons. We have made salvation all about getting someone to walk an aisle, repeat a phrase, sign a membership card, and tell them they are safe and secure forever and ever. Hopefully they will start coming to church or something. Then those people ride off into the sunset, never to be heard of again, thinking to themselves ‘Hey, I am good with God because I prayed this prayer’. That is just scary. I know several people who will tell me they are saved, and name a time and a place they prayed a prayer 15 years ago or so. But since then…nothing. No love for God; no caring what God thinks; No desire to pursue Him or live Godly lives; just living as everyone else, yet saying ‘Oh yea, I am saved’. We have taught or allowed it to be taught that true salvation can come and your life not be impacted. So now we have a world of people, saying they are saved, yet living like everyone else. Some come to church, but as Greg pointed out, it may be for the entertainment factor. We have put salvation on us, that we reconcile ourselves to God by praying a prayer, rather than the Biblical truth that God reconciles himself to us by – as Jarrod pointed out – giving us a new heart. Sure, we have to accept this by turning to Him in faith, but salvation from beginning to end is a work of God not man.

Chase, you said you didn’t want theological aspect as much as practical aspects. So I apologize for the 3,414 words I just typed. [editors note: 802 words] I think it is appropriate in light of this that instead of leading people to pray a prayer to accept Christ; we lead them to pray a prayer of desperation begging God to save their souls through Christ. I think it wise for all of us to pray that prayer – as Paul said to do, test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. I think that we should have altar calls that do not so much invite people to be saved, but invite people to let us walk with them as they begin a journey of salvation; a journey that has a definite beginning and a definite end result. I think we explain to people the inherent dangers of false salvation, and that Christ is not just Savior but that He is Lord and that His requirement is to follow Him. That we explain there is an enemy at work who will try to steal the seeds of salvation. I think discipleship and salvation go hand in hand, not discipleship as an afterthought to being saved or an optional ministry that we can have. 

 

That was a very strong answer to the question, and summary of the issues by David. I don’t actually think I can add a whole lot more to the discussion here - excellent work, David, and excellent work everybody else. I hope you all have enjoyed this theology by email post - I think we will do it again soon! 

 

Grace and Peace, 

Chase (along with: John Talley, Samuel Knowles, Jarrod Patterson, Greg Cusimano Michael Fargarson and David Mcconnell)

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